Hello fellow antifacists,
if you speak german, I could need your skills.
(boost appreciated to actually reach out to the german speaking side of the fediverse)
Here what it's about:
There is a project called #whonix. Within the security, free software and hacker community it is famous for being a VM providing anonymity. And it seems to have links to facists.
It is/was promoted by people such as Edward Snowden, @micahflee, or Phineas Fisher in their "how to hack a bank" DIY as a method to support the poor classes (the later you can find here: https://unicornriot.ninja/2019/massive-hack-strikes-offshore-cayman-national-bank-and-trust/)
What is troubling:
There are indications that the lead developer behind whonix is a fascists or at least a supporter of the far-right.
Their name is Patrick Schleizer and they speak german. That's where your skills as a potential german speaking antifascists are needed. He has a youtube channel. There he give support to #NuoViso, #HagenGrell, #OliverJanich an others. As far as I'm aware they are either far-right and/or conspiracy theorists.
For NuoViso he got filmed while speaking at a protest.
If you could provide me with some more insights, or even link me to some texts (English preferred, but german is also fine since online translation exists)
This is his youtube channel:
@syster @isolategab Oh wow, on his youtube channel is a (inaudible) recording of him speaking at a "Montagsdemo" (literally "monday demonstration/protest"). Both the german and the english Wikipedia only seem to have information on the historic occurrences, but in the recent years they have been rebooted by an obscure mixture of people. Organisers are mostly conspiracy "theorists", anti-Semites, right wingers and confused people who actually believed this protest was for peace as advertised.
@syster @isolategab Once you ask visitors about why there is war everywhere though they pretty quickly came up with stuff like "its because the jews have all the money" and stuff like that. They also liked to invite protestors into more private settings (think alehouse) and try to indoctrinate them.
This definitevly fits with the description you made.
@syster @isolategab If you would be interested in a transcript (with or without translation) of him speaking in the video below, I can offer you to do that later tonight. I’m not going to watch his longer videos on his channel, though.
that would be sweet.
>They also liked to invite protestors into more private settings (think alehouse) and try to indoctrinate them.
ouch. My assumption from the information I got is kind of this:
Patrick Schleizer was a liberal and a tech dude that came as a relatively naive an unreflected person to a movement that radicalized people through conspiracy theories and right wing shit.
@syster Alexander Benesch¹ is behind recentr.com, formerly Infokrieg.tv². “Infokrieg” is german for “Infowar” and infokrieg.tv was affiliated with Infowars.com (Alex Jones). The shop on recentr.com sells books for about “prepping” and about conspiracy ideologies, most of them written by himself, it seems. The articles are mostly conspiracy ideologies too.
Oliver Janich³ doesn’t believe in climate change and was chairman of the populist PDV (“Partei der Vernunft” = “Party of reason”), a turbo-capitalist conspiracy spreading party. He also is a racist and spreads conspiracy ideologies about 9/11/2001 and antisemitic “capitalism criticism”.
@syster Hagen Grell¹ is close to the fascist party AfD and the climate change denying “institute” EIKE.²
He makes videos about “the mainstream-media”, “forced vaccinations” (Bill Gates and so on), “racism against white people” and other conspiracy ideologies.
@syster I watched the speech from the protest on NuoViso, and I looked up his various social media.
The speech itself was a fairly even mix of "capitalism bad", "nuclear bad" and "people more rich than us don't care"--not all stuff I agree with, but definitely not alt-right.
On the other hand, on Twitter I found him retweeting tweets dismissing concerns about somebody having recommended a staunchly antifeminist author as guilt by association, which seems kinda dogwhistle-y.
My first impression is that he's probably a "freeze peach"-ler and that people have reasons to worry, but no definite proof of foul play yet. He also seemingly stopped using any personal social media around 2016, which doesn't help.
I'll keep looking, probably will have to dig into one of those long interviews.
@suivran @syster This speach for sure does not sound like a far-right. In the end they list a number of protests which include protests agains racism and suggests to fight together against capitalism.
On their youtube channel they made an interview to unconditional basic income and has two videos that include anarchist (anarcho-capitalist which is a weird mix). But all this is also >5 years ago which means that their views on things could have changed.
@syster There's nothing fascist on that channel at all. And why would you expect that from someone supporting anonymity in the first place?
@syster (At first glance that is. But the titles seem pretty clear to me.)
@syster Also, why would you even care? Have you researched every scientists and engineer's personal ideology in history, and then abandoned anything of value where the creator had a different view from your own?
@raucao @syster The main problem seems to be the unwillingness to distance themselves from gab. https://micahflee.com/2020/06/is-the-whonix-project-run-by-fascists/
@syster LOL, I just tuned into one of the recent videos, just to double-check, and there's an anarchist arguing with a minarchist. It couldn't be any farther away from fascism if it tried.
You are absolutely clueless.
1. non of them are anarchist or hold anarchist value.
2. both are capitalists
3. both spread conspiracy theories and one of them had long time affiliation with Alex Jones
4. At least one other person that Patrick supports at his channel under "Partners" has close ties to the german facist party #AfD.
5. Read some comments here https://social.linux.pizza/@syster/104405671279034460 first before continuing engaging with me.
@syster LOL, please politely fuck off with childish insults and "I know the only true anarchism before god" crap. I held similar views to yours once, but I grew up since then.
@syster (Notice how I didn't say leftist anarchist, or ancom, or anarcho-syndicalist, or anything else specific. Your ideological blindfolds are still strong, likely from early learnings about anarchism.)
@syster and you don't even know which video it was. Hence. You cannot logically know what you're talking about. I merely made a quick comment aboit the topics in that video.
ok, you are funny, so I give you one more reply.
I assume that you're talking about a video for what I requested feedback. If you talk about something that is not related to this thread, then simply don't reply.
A good practice when engaging with me: Don't behave like an asshole while talking nonsense.
I believe you can do better.
You are very disrespectful. I asked you to read the comments first before you continue to engage with me. If you would have done so, you would read that those you describe as anarchist are xenophobic, antisemitic...conspiracy theorists. Anarchism is very much about dismantling hierarchies and building solidarity. Antisemitism, Xenophobia...are upholding specific hierarchies that are used to separate humans into a class society to exploit.
Read the comments first, or shut up! Stop wasting my time.
@syster You insult me out of nowhere and I am the disrespectful one? All my replies before your childish outburst were completely polite.
@raucao a logical reasoning why your arguments are false, is not an insult.
Your respond to this reasoning is:
"fuck off with childish insults"
I'm out. Read the thread and educate yourself and leave me alone.
@syster For future conversations you may want to have with anyone: "You are absolutely clueless" is not logical reasoning, and does not ever invite civil discussion. In case you hadn't noticed, I didn't even continue the actual discussion itself since that insult. Good bye.
@syster Seems like the far right as well as the far left would likely appreciate "a VM providing anonymity". Are you saying that you don't trust the software because of the political views of one of its developers?
@mpjgregoire I'm interested in VM to provide anonymity as a means to protect human rights.
I cannot trust a project to protect human rights, if their political view is to dismantle them.
The whonix project is open source so don´t have to trust the people making it you have to check the code or trust people who read the code and consider it save to use.
IMHO there are a lot of not so nice and cruel to ugly mindsets found in this scene, because they have a need for anonymity, like pedophiles, fascists, or religious hardliner and so on.
Same in tor or tails project I presume.
But that can not be an argument against this software and the right of free speech.
software development is nothing that is magically disconnected from those making it neither from those that check the code.
If those checking the code, did not notice that it might be written by fascist, that might indicate that the quality of the checks aren't as high as they should be, or that they don't have a problem with supporting fascists.
Neither of those options are a source of trust to me.
I agree with you not to donate or support fascist groups and their believes in any way. You can not really control who contributes to an open source project and you will always find persons you can´t agree with their belives or doings.
Years ago I had to make peace with myself about Eric S Raymond. I am big fan of the jargonfiles and still use some software he contributed to although he as a person is absolutely not ok for me
or creator of reiserfs
I will look into it. I like using whonix very much, like the concept of routing all traffic thru the gateway and use several different systems as clients because it is connivent and easy. but if you are right it cant be so difficult to configure an arch or debian to to the same job. thanks for sharing your concerns.
@syster Hi :) I am a native speaker. What can I do for you?
@syster I do!
@syster he doesn't look like a proper nazi. Way far away from proper nazi. More a person close to some conspiracy theories and right-wing freedom of speech movement. On his channel he has Ralph Boes who seems to be a person at least partly pushed by pro-russian forces on the internet. Monday demonstration is also a place full of pro-russian germans at least in eastern europe. It is also flooded with authoritarian communists. So the whole mixture can be hard to grasp. His stance on neonazi social network as well as his involvement in dodgy movements in Germany doesn't create a good reputation for whonix project at all.
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